You can go to Monday's post to see John's parents. Today's profile is from the same tree.
Comments after the jump.
Six records attached to one marriage. None of which have the name John Smith anywhere on them. Neither do two of the other records. Yet another is a record for one of his children. Then there's the S.A.R. application. Submitted in 1890 with "John Smith" listed as the applicant's grandfather. Let's see, John Rock Smith was born in 1615. Yup, perfectly logical.
Wife Martha Strickland died at the age of 34 yet gave birth to 24 children. Of course five of those children were born after her death. Wife Elizabeth Martha Strickland has a child before she's born and gives birth again at the age of 3. Wife Hanna Murra gives birth 15 years after she died. Wife Elizabeth Gildersleeve dies at the age of 40 but has 28 children. She first gave birth at the age of 6 and continued to give birth for 60 years after she died. Wife Hannah Murray is 51 years his younger. Wife Martha STRICKLAND has a child two years after her death. Son Jeremiah is born 9 times to 5 different mothers. Yup, makes perfect sense.
There is a detailed story written by another Ancestry.com member attached to this profile. This tree owner has clearly not read it. Here is a short excerpt:
Thanks to David for the link to this profile ;-)
If you have a profile to suggest please send a link to buwtree(at)gmail(dot)com.
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Comments after the jump.
John Rock Smith
B: 1615 in Lancaster, Lancashire, England
M: 1639 in Lewis, Lewis, New York to Martha Strickland
M: 1639 in Lewis, Lewis, New York to Elizabeth Martha Strickland
M: 1640 in Long Island City, Queens, New York to Hannah Murra
M: 1640 to Elizabeth Gildersleeve
M: 1695 in Long Island City, Queens, New York to Hannah Murray
D: 1706 in New York
SPOUSE & CHILDREN
Martha Strickland (1614-1648)
✿ Timothy Smith
✿ MARY ROCK SMITH, B: 1630
✿ Jonathan Rock Smith, B: 1632
✿ Hannah Rock Smith, B: 1634
✿ John Rock Smith, B: 1636
✿ Joseph Rock Smith, B: 1638
✿ Richard Smith, B: 1638
✿ Martha Rock Smith, B: 1640
✿ Mary Rock Smith, B: 1640
✿ Mary Rock Smith, B: 1640
✿ John Rock Smith, B: 1642
✿ Hewlett Smith, B: 1644
✿ Jonathan Smith, B: 1645
✿ Jonathan Rock SMITH, B: 1645
✿ Martha SMITH, B: 1646
✿ MARTHA SMITH, B: 1646
✿ Miriam Smith, B: 1647
✿ Hannah Rock Smith, B: 1650
✿ John Rock Smith, B: 1651
✿ Jeremiah Smith, B: 1656
✿ Jeremiah Smith, B: 1656
✿ Martha Smith, B: 1670
SPOUSE & CHILDREN
Elizabeth Martha Strickland (1631-1665)
✿ MARY ROCK SMITH, B: 1630
✿ Hannah Rock Smith, B: 1634
✿ Martha Rock Smith, B: 1640
✿ Jonathan Smith, B: 1645
✿ Miriam Smith, B: 1647
✿ Hannah Rock Smith, B: 1650
✿ John Rock Smith, B: 1651
✿ Jeremiah Smith, B: 1656
✿ Hannah Smith, B: 1656
✿ Martha Smith, B: 1670
SPOUSE & CHILDREN
Hannah Murra (1610-1665)
✿ MARY ROCK SMITH, B: 1630
✿ JONATHAN SMITH, B: 1645
✿ MARTHA SMITH, B: 1646
✿ JOESPH SMITH, B: 1680
SPOUSE & CHILDREN
Elizabeth Gildersleeve (1624-1664)
✿ daughter Smith
✿ Hannah Smith
✿ John Smith
✿ Joseph Smith
✿ Martha Smith
✿ Mary Smith
✿ Mary Frost Smith
✿ Richard SMITH
✿ Richard SMITH
✿ Sarah SMITH
✿ Sarah SMITH
✿ Timothy SMITH
✿ Mary Rock Smith, B: 1630
✿ MARY ROCK SMITH, B: 1630
✿ Mary Rock Smith, B: 1640
✿ Jonathan Rock SMITH, B: 1645
✿ Jonathan Rock SMITH, B: 1645
✿ MARTHA SMITH, B: 1646
✿ Hannah Rock Smith, B: 1650
✿ Jeremiah Smith, B: 1656
✿ Jeremiah Smith, B: 1656
✿ Jeremiah Smith, B: 1656
✿ Hannah SMITH, B: 1662
✿ Martha Smith, B: 1670
✿ JOESPH SMITH, B: 1680
✿ JOESPH SMITH, B: 1680
✿ Mary Smith, B: 1696
✿ Hewlett SMITH, B: 1724
SPOUSE
Hannah Murray (1666-1712)
SPOUSE & CHILDREN
Martha STRICKLAND (1632-1648)
✿ Martha SMITH, B: 1646
✿ Hannah Rock Smith, B: 1650
SPOUSE & CHILDREN
Elizabeth Wood (1631-1726)
✿ Jeremiah Smith, B: 1656
✿ Jeremiah Smith, B: 1656
SPOUSE & CHILDREN
Anna Gildersleeve (1629-1683)
✿ Jeremiah Smith, B: 1656
SOME of the RECORDS ATTACHED
✿ American Genealogical-Biographical Index
John Smith, B: 1615 in New York
✿ Family Data Collection - Births
Mary Rock Smith, B: 1640 in Dorchester, MA to John Rock Smith & Elizabeth Gildersleeve
✿ Family Data Collection - Births
Elizabeth Gildersleeve, B: 1624 in Huntington, NY to Richard Gildersleeve & Jo Anna Appleton
✿ Family Data Collection - Individual Records
Elizabeth Gildersleeve; Spouse: Elizabeth Gildersleeve; Parents: Richard Gildersleeve & Jo Anna Appleton; Birth: 1624 in Suffolk of Huntington, NY; Death: 1664 in Flushing, NY
✿ Family Data Collection - Individual Records*
Elizabeth Gildersleeve; Spouse: Jeremiah Wood; Parents: Richard Gildersleeve; Birth: 1625 in Hempstead, NY; Marriage: May 1640; Death: 1659
✿ Family Data Collection - Individual Records*
Elizabeth Seaman Strickland; Spouse: John Seaman Capt; Parents: Jane Fenwick & John Strickland; Birth: 1631 in Nassau, Hempstead, NY; Marriage: 1643 in Hempstead, Nassau, NY; Death: 1665 in Long Island, NY
✿ Family Data Collection - Individual Records*
Elizabeth Strickland; Spouse: Elizabeth Strickland; Parents: John Strickland & Mrs John Strickland; Birth: 1631 in Nassau, of Hempstead, NY; Marriage: 1644 in Hempstead, Nassau, NY; Death: 1665 in Long Island, NY
✿ Family Data Collection - Individual Records*
Martha Moore, Spouse: John Seaman; Parents: Thomas Moore & Martha Yonges; Birth: 21 Oct 1639 in Essex, Salem, MA; Marriage: 1654 in Hempstead, Nassau, NY; Death: 1697
✿ U.S. and International Marriage Records*
John Seaman; Birth: 1615 in Es; Spouse: Elizabeth Strickland (B: En)
✿ U.S. and International Marriage Records*
John Seaman; Birth: 1604 in EN; Spouse: Elizabeth Strickland; Marriage: 1642
✿ U.S. Sons of the American Revolution Membership Applications
John Smith; Spouse: Elizabeth Trowbridge; Relationship to applicant: Grandfather; Date of application: 1890
✿ Ancestry Member Trees - 65 trees
* These records are all listed as "sources" for the 1639 marriage to Elizabeth Martha Strickland.
B: 1615 in Lancaster, Lancashire, England
M: 1639 in Lewis, Lewis, New York to Martha Strickland
M: 1639 in Lewis, Lewis, New York to Elizabeth Martha Strickland
M: 1640 in Long Island City, Queens, New York to Hannah Murra
M: 1640 to Elizabeth Gildersleeve
M: 1695 in Long Island City, Queens, New York to Hannah Murray
D: 1706 in New York
SPOUSE & CHILDREN
Martha Strickland (1614-1648)
✿ Timothy Smith
✿ MARY ROCK SMITH, B: 1630
✿ Jonathan Rock Smith, B: 1632
✿ Hannah Rock Smith, B: 1634
✿ John Rock Smith, B: 1636
✿ Joseph Rock Smith, B: 1638
✿ Richard Smith, B: 1638
✿ Martha Rock Smith, B: 1640
✿ Mary Rock Smith, B: 1640
✿ Mary Rock Smith, B: 1640
✿ John Rock Smith, B: 1642
✿ Hewlett Smith, B: 1644
✿ Jonathan Smith, B: 1645
✿ Jonathan Rock SMITH, B: 1645
✿ Martha SMITH, B: 1646
✿ MARTHA SMITH, B: 1646
✿ Miriam Smith, B: 1647
✿ Hannah Rock Smith, B: 1650
✿ John Rock Smith, B: 1651
✿ Jeremiah Smith, B: 1656
✿ Jeremiah Smith, B: 1656
✿ Martha Smith, B: 1670
SPOUSE & CHILDREN
Elizabeth Martha Strickland (1631-1665)
✿ MARY ROCK SMITH, B: 1630
✿ Hannah Rock Smith, B: 1634
✿ Martha Rock Smith, B: 1640
✿ Jonathan Smith, B: 1645
✿ Miriam Smith, B: 1647
✿ Hannah Rock Smith, B: 1650
✿ John Rock Smith, B: 1651
✿ Jeremiah Smith, B: 1656
✿ Hannah Smith, B: 1656
✿ Martha Smith, B: 1670
SPOUSE & CHILDREN
Hannah Murra (1610-1665)
✿ MARY ROCK SMITH, B: 1630
✿ JONATHAN SMITH, B: 1645
✿ MARTHA SMITH, B: 1646
✿ JOESPH SMITH, B: 1680
SPOUSE & CHILDREN
Elizabeth Gildersleeve (1624-1664)
✿ daughter Smith
✿ Hannah Smith
✿ John Smith
✿ Joseph Smith
✿ Martha Smith
✿ Mary Smith
✿ Mary Frost Smith
✿ Richard SMITH
✿ Richard SMITH
✿ Sarah SMITH
✿ Sarah SMITH
✿ Timothy SMITH
✿ Mary Rock Smith, B: 1630
✿ MARY ROCK SMITH, B: 1630
✿ Mary Rock Smith, B: 1640
✿ Jonathan Rock SMITH, B: 1645
✿ Jonathan Rock SMITH, B: 1645
✿ MARTHA SMITH, B: 1646
✿ Hannah Rock Smith, B: 1650
✿ Jeremiah Smith, B: 1656
✿ Jeremiah Smith, B: 1656
✿ Jeremiah Smith, B: 1656
✿ Hannah SMITH, B: 1662
✿ Martha Smith, B: 1670
✿ JOESPH SMITH, B: 1680
✿ JOESPH SMITH, B: 1680
✿ Mary Smith, B: 1696
✿ Hewlett SMITH, B: 1724
SPOUSE
Hannah Murray (1666-1712)
SPOUSE & CHILDREN
Martha STRICKLAND (1632-1648)
✿ Martha SMITH, B: 1646
✿ Hannah Rock Smith, B: 1650
SPOUSE & CHILDREN
Elizabeth Wood (1631-1726)
✿ Jeremiah Smith, B: 1656
✿ Jeremiah Smith, B: 1656
SPOUSE & CHILDREN
Anna Gildersleeve (1629-1683)
✿ Jeremiah Smith, B: 1656
SOME of the RECORDS ATTACHED
✿ American Genealogical-Biographical Index
John Smith, B: 1615 in New York
✿ Family Data Collection - Births
Mary Rock Smith, B: 1640 in Dorchester, MA to John Rock Smith & Elizabeth Gildersleeve
✿ Family Data Collection - Births
Elizabeth Gildersleeve, B: 1624 in Huntington, NY to Richard Gildersleeve & Jo Anna Appleton
✿ Family Data Collection - Individual Records
Elizabeth Gildersleeve; Spouse: Elizabeth Gildersleeve; Parents: Richard Gildersleeve & Jo Anna Appleton; Birth: 1624 in Suffolk of Huntington, NY; Death: 1664 in Flushing, NY
✿ Family Data Collection - Individual Records*
Elizabeth Gildersleeve; Spouse: Jeremiah Wood; Parents: Richard Gildersleeve; Birth: 1625 in Hempstead, NY; Marriage: May 1640; Death: 1659
✿ Family Data Collection - Individual Records*
Elizabeth Seaman Strickland; Spouse: John Seaman Capt; Parents: Jane Fenwick & John Strickland; Birth: 1631 in Nassau, Hempstead, NY; Marriage: 1643 in Hempstead, Nassau, NY; Death: 1665 in Long Island, NY
✿ Family Data Collection - Individual Records*
Elizabeth Strickland; Spouse: Elizabeth Strickland; Parents: John Strickland & Mrs John Strickland; Birth: 1631 in Nassau, of Hempstead, NY; Marriage: 1644 in Hempstead, Nassau, NY; Death: 1665 in Long Island, NY
✿ Family Data Collection - Individual Records*
Martha Moore, Spouse: John Seaman; Parents: Thomas Moore & Martha Yonges; Birth: 21 Oct 1639 in Essex, Salem, MA; Marriage: 1654 in Hempstead, Nassau, NY; Death: 1697
✿ U.S. and International Marriage Records*
John Seaman; Birth: 1615 in Es; Spouse: Elizabeth Strickland (B: En)
✿ U.S. and International Marriage Records*
John Seaman; Birth: 1604 in EN; Spouse: Elizabeth Strickland; Marriage: 1642
✿ U.S. Sons of the American Revolution Membership Applications
John Smith; Spouse: Elizabeth Trowbridge; Relationship to applicant: Grandfather; Date of application: 1890
✿ Ancestry Member Trees - 65 trees
* These records are all listed as "sources" for the 1639 marriage to Elizabeth Martha Strickland.
ⓑⓐⓡⓚⓘⓝⓖ ⓤⓟ ⓣⓗⓔ ⓦⓡⓞⓝⓖ ⓣⓡⓔⓔ
Six records attached to one marriage. None of which have the name John Smith anywhere on them. Neither do two of the other records. Yet another is a record for one of his children. Then there's the S.A.R. application. Submitted in 1890 with "John Smith" listed as the applicant's grandfather. Let's see, John Rock Smith was born in 1615. Yup, perfectly logical.
Wife Martha Strickland died at the age of 34 yet gave birth to 24 children. Of course five of those children were born after her death. Wife Elizabeth Martha Strickland has a child before she's born and gives birth again at the age of 3. Wife Hanna Murra gives birth 15 years after she died. Wife Elizabeth Gildersleeve dies at the age of 40 but has 28 children. She first gave birth at the age of 6 and continued to give birth for 60 years after she died. Wife Hannah Murray is 51 years his younger. Wife Martha STRICKLAND has a child two years after her death. Son Jeremiah is born 9 times to 5 different mothers. Yup, makes perfect sense.
There is a detailed story written by another Ancestry.com member attached to this profile. This tree owner has clearly not read it. Here is a short excerpt:
"According to the New York Genealogical and Biographical Record, vol.30, p.203, John Rock Smith's wife was a daughter of Lt. John Strickland. Some have taken that to mean Martha Strickland. The Treadwell Genealogy says his wife was Hannah Murry (c1621-c1661). Long Island Genealogies says she was possibly named Mary, who died between 1660 and 1665, after which John married Sara. Another source claims Elizabeth Gildersleeve (b.1624), daughter of Richard Gildersleeve and Jo Anna Appleton. another claims Elizabeth Wood, daughter of Jeremiah Wood (b.1618) and the same Elizabeth Gildersleeve. In short, there is no agreement as to the identity of John Rock Smith's wife."Apparently the tree owner decided "no agreement" means "attach them all and more!" Sigh.
Thanks to David for the link to this profile ;-)
If you have a profile to suggest please send a link to buwtree(at)gmail(dot)com.
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There isn't a single piece of documentary evidence as to the name of John Rock Smith's wife.
ReplyDeleteFrom the latest and most definitive work in the NYGBS Record NYGBS Record Vol 88 No. 1 Jan 1957 by Rosalie Fellows Bailey
"Nothing is known of Rock Smith's wife† other than that she was living in 1660, when she was indirectly mentioned in John James' unrecorded will (given above). She did not join in any of the deeds to the children. The earliest of these and his earliest sale was to his son-in-law Samuel Denton on April 18, 1665 (HpTR:r :162). From this we infer that Rock Smith's wife was dead by 1665 and that they had been married in the 1640's. Her name may have been Mary, since four of their children gave that name to a daughter."
"†Called Hannah Murray without reference by the Tredwell genealogy, evidently from the much later marriage license of a John Smith to Hannah Murray on Dec. 27, 1758. This surname is not in the town and county records."
Oh, and the John Nan (not Natz) Smith and Anna (not Ann ) Gildersleeve from the Monday post are not John Rock Smith's parents.
ReplyDeleteThey are his "machatunim", a yiddish word meaning the parents of your child's spouse.
John Rock Smith's son John Smith Jr. married Hannah Smith, daughter of John Nan Smith and Anna Gildersleeve.
Although I am sure the issue has been discussed many, many times before, I will take the liberty of a relative newcomer and pose a few questions: Why do people engage in this kind of nonsense? What possible satisfaction could anyone derive from it? Can or should the people at Ancestry.com do more to promote better standards of practice? (Yes, I know that at one level they have an interest in maximizing revenue, but they also have a brand to protect -- and at some point the proliferation of this kind of junk begins to inflict damage on the brand.)
ReplyDeleteAgain, I don't mean to annoy folks by re-plowing old ground. But I have to say that I am really appalled when I see that so many people are doing something they call 'genealogy' without the faintest attention to (or apparently interest in) the most basic standards of documentation and/or logical thought.
Mark
Ancestry has been doing more education. Crista Cowan does video tutorials twice a week and Tweetchats twice a month. Unfortunately the people who need them the most aren't watching or asking questions :-P I've found these people are also the most defensive when it comes to the quality of their research. When confronted with someone telling them of a mistake those doing actual research will immediately go into analytical mode. "What's the issue?" "What sources do you have that I'm missing?" Etc. Clickophiles don't consider for a second that they might be wrong. I doesn't matter that they've never looked at a single original record. Sigh.
DeleteI agree that Ancestry is being overrun with these junk/mythological/fantasy trees but outside of hiring 1000s of genealogy police I'm not sure what else they can do. Maybe a pop-up when someone joins: "Other people" are idiots, ignore their trees :-P
What about allowing users to rate public trees? I haven't really thought this through and I'm sure there are a million pitfalls, but it would be wonderful to have a way to flag trees like this to warn other users. Then maybe after a certain number of negative ratings Ancestry could remove the tree from search results or at least put it much lower in the list. Similarly it would be nice to be able to highlight those trees where there is great information and sourcing. It wouldn't be nearly as accurate as official "genealogy police," but over time I'd imagine that you'd get a good sense of which trees are great and which ones aren't worth the storage space.
DeleteI can see it now, Ancestry threatens to take down my tree because all the tree owners who have been featured on my blog have found and flagged it ;-)
DeleteActually I think it's a good idea Emily. One pitfall would be that clickophiles could rate trees. Since they don't know, or care, what a record is or what is logically possible (like NOT going back to Adam & Eve) they would probably rate the Adam & Eve/Charlemagne/Zombie trees positively :-P
Well Mark, based on my personal experience interacting with them when trying to correct them, I'd say that the village idiots are no longer confined to the village. They're now free to roam about the internet at will.
ReplyDeleteSince there is a bit of discussion here, let me ask a question...
ReplyDeleteWhen I come across a bit of data that 'might' fit the person, but I'm not certain, I typically add it to that person but add a code of my own (NC for not confirmed). so I may end up with two marriage dates, for example, while I'm trying to sort out the data. This is more helpful to me than tossing it in Ancestry's shoebox (never to be seen again).
What do others recommend as a method here?
Patti,
DeleteThe shoebox kinda stinks :-P I actually attach the record and add a note in the description field with details. Why I think it might be them, why I'm on the fence about the record, what I need to follow up on, etc.. I know the record then shows up as a hint for others who have that person in their tree but it's up to them to verify it for themselves. Unless they add some way to organize or add notes in the shoebox that's what I'll do.
Patti -- good idea of using "NC". I too wish Ancestry's shoebox was easier to search. I probably have a 1000 'hits' stored there, but to find what I'm looking for means going through the entire thing, page by page. How about a 'search' option or a 'filing' option for those of us who find something interesting, but want to spend some additional time researching and verifying the information.
ReplyDeleteAgreed Patti! Even just an option to add a note would help. I've got newspaper pages saved and there's no name attached and I can't remember who I was looking for or why I saved it :-P
Delete